Building a Purpose-Driven Practice in Three Months

Maddy Roche: Hello, and welcome to XYPN Radio. I am Maddy Roche. I'm an XYPN business coach and consultant, as well as the host of this podcast. Today, I have a fellow coach on the show with me. Rob Brown is the founder of Truest Fan Coaching, and he works with RIA owners on finding and living by their purpose. Rob and I have a really fascinating conversation in this episode.

Rob shares his process for guiding someone to identifying and defining their purpose, both their business purpose and their life purpose. And we discuss what's at risk if you don't set that purpose. And we talk about what happens if an advisor finds themselves burnt out. We talk about time audits, bad habits, and why hiring isn't always the solution advisors are looking for.

Rob ends this interview with a beautiful reminder to advisors, and a reminder I couldn't agree more with. I hope you enjoy this podcast with Rob Brown.

Maddy Roche: Hello, Rob. Welcome to XYPN Radio. How are you today?

Rob Brown: I am doing great. Thanks for having me, Maddy.

Maddy Roche: Yeah, I've been really looking forward to chatting with you, Rob. You are a fellow coach to advisors and anyone who's listened to this podcast knows I love talking to a coach about their expertise and what they bring to the table for our wonderful listeners, members, and audience.

So Rob, if you don't mind, I'll have you introduce yourself and your company.

Rob Brown: Okay, so my name's Rob Brown. I am the founder of Truest Fan Coaching which has been around in a couple of different forms since 2002. So I've been at this a while. I came into coaching after having been a financial advisor myself. As well as helping run a firm where I said grace over about 250 other advisors.

 So that was like herding cats. And I am here because of all of the things that I was doing through the time where I was an advisor and in senior management and doing that. Cat herding. The thing that I loved doing most was helping advisors grow their businesses. And I just love the impact that that has because it multiplies because the more successful my clients are, the more successful their clients are.

And that's just kind of how I view the power of being a financial advisor. And not to go on too long, I also have a podcast, The Purpose Focused Advisor which. Maddy, I hope to have you on as a guest soon too. But I'm just a big believer in purpose. And that purpose emanates from the idea that the work of financial advisors is extraordinarily important in this world, and it needs to be done well.

Maddy Roche: Couldn't agree more. And Rob, you're on the podcast because you coach some XYPN advisors And you were referred to us as an expert in the space. And given your purpose driven focus, what is the purpose of your firm?

Rob Brown: So my purpose, and this might sound flippant, is to help my clients understand their purpose because I believe that when you build your business around your purpose, around your why, that you build a more meaningful business that allows you to serve the clients that you choose to serve and that you can serve best, better.

And so, I just want my Advisors to be the best versions of themselves in their businesses, in their lives, so that transfers to how they build their businesses And, and take care of their families, take care of their clients, serve the causes that they care about.

Maddy Roche: Yeah, I've always found coaching to be. Quite similar to the work that advisors do with their clients. And there's a lot that we can relate to our advisor clients about in terms of kind of developing the rapport and holding people accountable. I'm wondering what was it in your own personal life that made you move from being a client facing advisor and what it sounds like a manager of many advisors into this space.

What, what prompted you?

Rob Brown: So, it wasn't a single step I was an advisor I had great success early in my career, and I was often called on by other advisors, even those who had been in the business longer than me for mentoring. I've always been a mentor. A mentor which led me to one wanting to get into management.

So I was part of a, of a firm of captive advisors. So we had branch managers. And so I just wanted to get into management so I could do more mentoring and coaching in that role that allowed me to build up to the point where I was the chief operating officer of the firm that I mentioned a little bit ago.

Being a chief operating officer inside of this firm, where I was being asked to coach advisors. In ways that I didn't think really benefited them and the way that they wanted to serve their clients the best. They weren't doing anything wrong, but it was just a, a different mindset, a different mentality.

I said, you know, let me just strip out of my executive role, the, the coaching and the mentoring that I do and create Truest Fan coaching. And so I did that and I, and I was still an advisor. So I had Truest Fan coaching and I was still an advisor. And then about 10 years into that, I said, you know, I'm just, I'm, I'm really loving the work that I'm doing working with advisors, and I'm probably not doing as much as I should be for my clients.

And fortunately I had a great partner and a great team that served my private clients. And we were we were. We had an internal succession plan built out. It just became obvious that it was the time to put that succession plan into place, even though it was a lot earlier than either one of us thought.

And then that led me to spending all of my time doing what I do now.

Maddy Roche: Beautiful evolution and congratulations on moving into the space. And now you've been a coach for quite a long time. And I'm wondering, have you witnessed any shifts in the industry over the past year? That's 20 years,

Rob Brown: No, it hasn't changed.

Maddy Roche: done.

Rob Brown: It hasn't, it hasn't changed at all. You know, I, we're laughing. But the truth is that over the course of the last 20 plus years that I've been coaching, there are. Things that haven't changed they're at their core that are really important to help the advisors that we work with really get to know and understand as they're building successful practices.

 But then there's a lot of stuff on the periphery that has changed with technology and compliance and all those other things that you have to adapt for as you're thinking about that core coaching that we that we do. And I think from a coaching perspective, I think coaching is more accepted today.

 You know, it was, it was, it was, it was a shock, I think, when I first started coaching, especially outside of the firm that I was employed by, that you would say, well, you know, you have a golf coach, why don't you have a business coach? And they'd be like, I never thought about it that way before. But now that seems like.

It's too obvious that people understand especially successful advisors who are really trying to get better at being, at doing what they do and being who they are. They know they need some help. They know they need somebody to look over their, their shoulder and offer them a second opinion.

Maddy Roche: Absolutely. And we talk a lot about niche at XYPN. Do you feel like you have a niche in terms of the type of advisor you support?

Rob Brown: Yes So most of my clients are, have been in the business a while, so they've been in the business five plus years. They've had good success in their businesses. And they have families causes that they care about, and they feel like they've gotten a little bit stuck. Maybe they've hit a plateau in their business because things are scattered and they can't put them back in order.

 Or they realize that to get to whatever that next level of success is, they have to do things differently than they did them before. It might be as simple as saying, you know, I grew my business as an advisor to be an advisor, but now I'm running a business and I've got to think about that completely differently. So it's, so it's a successful advisor who's just kind of come to a point where there's more here and I've got to discover what that, what that is.

Maddy Roche: I see this over and over and over again at XYPN. There's so much momentum and inertia in the first five years of building a firm like this. It's quite lucrative. Most of our XYPN advisors are quite successful at reaching that first plateau, but it kind of hits them like a ton of bricks when they do arrive.

And I've started calling it kind of the, I've arrived. What's the next phase or plateau of an advisor's business? And Rob, I'd be interested to say, I'm a client of yours and I've arrived at this plateau. I mean, what could I expect from a coach to help me through that?

Rob Brown: So we quickly start talking about what your purpose is and what your big dreams are. That is, to me, the most important way to begin a new relationship, is to set everything aside that you've done to really think, you know, there's something more that I want to do. They're, they're, they're ideas that I have for the next 5, 10, 15 years of my career.

Business life and my personal life, and I just want to get those all out there. So we go through a what I call the dream big exercise, which is closing the office door, turning off all the distractions, and just like a mad person writing down anything that you, Think it's possible or think it's impossible that may happen in your career, in your life, who you're going to be around, where you're going to be, what accomplishments you'll have, what you'll be able to say to your kids, you know, what would the headlines look like at that point in time?

I really want to just get people to kind of pull out all of, all of the things and just not even try to edit it and then, and then kind of scale that back and help pull from that. The purpose, what, what, what are the common threads behind those things that you're dreaming about, that we can center your business and your life around so that we can create a logical plan for going forward, logical vision, a logical strategy.

Maddy Roche: Hmm. I love that process. Tell me a bit more about like the actual experience of it. So you close office door, it's just you and me talking on video. And are you prompting questions? Am I handwriting these things? What does it really look like to help someone through this?

Rob Brown: It's, it's different for different clients. For some I can send them a short set of videos that I've created that they'll take and they'll work on, on their own. Others don't like taking classes, taking courses. So I will Get on the one of our calls with them, and I'll walk through those, that same set of exercises, but just do it in person through a series of, of questions.

And it's really important for me during those sessions to be quiet, to ask the question, and then say things like, tell me more. Why did you say to that? Add to that, but just, just to really be able to encourage them along. But it really depends on, on the scenario. And I work with my clients over the course of many years.

 I, I have clients that I've worked with now for eight, 10 years. And so when we go through that. dreaming process. It's we're, we're building on things that they've already talked about, things that I already may know about them so that, so the way that we approach it might go a little bit a little bit differently.

Maddy Roche: I'm tempted to ask, like, what happens if someone can't dream big? And I feel like it's more common than I want to see that people have a really hard time kind of writing it all down for, you know, a variety of reasons, like maybe their own scripts, maybe their own limitations. But I often, in my own personal life, feel like I just don't have enough, like, idols or people to look up to that are living these kind of, like, alternative crazy lives that I could reach for.

Like, how do you inspire someone to, to come up with a new version of themselves?

Rob Brown: Well, first of all they're your dreams, they're nobody else's dreams. So I, I, I constantly remind anybody who's going through this dreaming process to not edit just right, just say things. You, you may be representing things in your dreams that are what you see somebody else achieving in this business or in some other aspect of, of, of life.

 But there's no, there are no wrong answers. So that's, that's why I, that, that's why you can never get it wrong. But I also know that, and I totally agree with you, that this is not easy for a lot of people, especially the first time. That's why I, I've never worked with somebody that's only done it once.

 If we've worked together for, you know, any period of time to be able to go back to it. In fact, I was in Ohio last week with a client doing an annual team retreat for his team. And As I was sitting there talking to them, leading them through this exercise, it just dawned on me, wow, they finally get how to dream together.

And we've been doing a version of this exercise on that team for a handful of years. But it was just finally coming together and clicking because there was some repetition behind the types of questions that we were looking at. And. Asking, and we are moving away from talking about things that all related back to how the team thought they could support the dreams of the founder of the team.

And they were talking about. Team dreams, team goals. And so, so it evolves. And the the owner of that business was like, wow, now I finally see what you wanted me to do, Rob, when we were talking about dreaming, my dreams are extending beyond the blinders I was putting on and so it just takes time sometimes.

Maddy Roche: Hmm. Beautiful. And because some of our listeners have yet to launch their firms or even leave where they currently are. I'm wondering, Rob, could you paint just a couple examples of like what a, what a dream of a firm could look like? What does it sound like? What are the components that it should include?

Rob Brown: So I'll, I'll share One of my dreams that didn't come true in terms of the way that I will describe it, but shaped the way that I've built the business that I've built. So, I am a huge Cleveland baseball fan, and I consider myself The world's greatest Cleveland Guardians, formerly Indians, fan.

And so, and I, and I love, I used to love numbers and doing financial planning and meeting with people. And so one time I was sitting down to do some dreaming, some visioning for my business, and I said, you know, I picture myself having an office. In a box in the Cleveland Stadium. So every day I get to go to work and I get to look the baseball diamond, which to me is as beautiful as any set of mountains that you could ever look at.

 And my clients were going to come in and they were going to meet with me and we were going to have, Popcorn and soda while we were having our meetings and by doing that, I was going to be able to really help people open up more about who they are, what they want to do, because they were in this fun, friendly place, talking about their important portfolios and their important financial plans.

 And so. That just kind of wild and crazy way of picturing the scene was one of these crazy dreams that I had that helped shape the way that I have, that I choose to work with my clients today, even though my office is in my den in my home in Williamsburg, Virginia, which is way too far away from that stadium in Cleveland.

Maddy Roche: I love that dream. I'm, I'm, I'm taken by it. But when we think about, you know, the purpose of a firm, of a financial planning practice of, of our clients. Are we trying to help them move towards like number of clients or the experience of the clients? What key components do you feel like need to be in a purpose for a firm to make it accessible?

Rob Brown: Well, I think one of the key components is making sure you, and this is, gets oversaid, but you really need to understand who that ideal client is that you really want to serve. I think that is a guiding point for the, for purpose of your business as a financial advisor, because I believe that the more ideal clients you serve, the faster your business will grow, the more fun you'll have running your business.

So I think, I think understanding that ideal client. is really important. And then if you understand who that ideal client is, then you've got to think about how you are going to serve them and communicate with them. So that becomes a second part of that purpose. Because it's okay to say, I want to work with them.

Thousands of clients and I don't care how big or small they are. I have a very defined set of things that I want to do with them, and I'm going to automate it and I'm going to do it online. And I never want to meet with them in person, but they're going to have the best experience they can in the world.

Given that set of parameters, or I might say, you know, I want to work with a very small number of clients. I want to offer them an extraordinarily high level of service. They have to have a big minimum for me to work with them because I've got to be challenged by the planning that I'm going to be doing for them.

And if I have too many clients who don't challenge me, I'm not going to be at my best in being able to serve them. So I said that in a way, I hope it's helpful, but just to kind of. Think about that and from two different dynamics. So that client piece is is really, really important in thinking about purpose.

 And then I think beyond that, I think you've got to ask yourself, what other things am I going to be able to do because of the way that I am serving my clients? What, what other things are to come out of my service? Will I really be the, the family man that I want to be and be there with my kids at dinnertime every night?

 I, I, one of the things I love about advisors, they tend to be very generous. They have lots of causes that they care about. Can I exercise some calling in my life to serve in some civic or charitable or church organization and do it for them? Better because of the, of the financial success and the things that I learned from being a top advisor who is purposefully focusing on taking care of those ideal clients.

Maddy Roche: Well said. What's at risk for not having a purpose?

Rob Brown: think the biggest risk is living a really mundane, boring life. There's a great book called, I'm not sure that it's in print anymore it was written by Bob Rotella who was a a, a coach, um to athletes and executives. He's a a professor at the University of Virginia, and the name of the book is Life is Not a Game of Perfect.

And at the end of that book, he challenges the reader to write his or her biography. And then. Ask questions like, will this be an exciting book, an exciting novel that your children, your grandchildren will be excited to read? Or will it just be something that gets put on the shelf and nobody really cares about?

So I think that's the risk to not thinking about and acting on your purpose is that you just end up doing things the way they've always been done. Maybe you can help some people along the way, and that's great, but it certainly won't be as, bring you as much joy or as much fun as it could be if you know that you're writing a novel, writing an autobiography that is really going to be worth reading.

Maddy Roche: I talk to a lot of clients, quite frankly, that, that do feel a little burnt out with what they've done and built. There's a level of pride in having made it as far as they have, but the connection to like that life source of like joy and happiness that you and I are talking about wanting to see in our clients just isn't there.

Rob Brown: very

Maddy Roche: There are different levels of burnout, of course, but I think there's just this general misalignment in some people that after a certain number of years in the business, they, they've, they look back at what they've built and they don't really love it. What do you do then?

Rob Brown: Well I, I really want to dig into the why they feel that way. And that's the, my favorite way to ask questions when it comes to dreaming big or to thinking about burnout is to say, when you think about why you are burnt out, what's going on? Keeping you from being grateful for the success that you have, you know, what's the number one thing that you believe is getting in the way?

And then I just shut up. And that's a really hard question to answer, but it gets the ball rolling, and usually, you know, something will come out like You know the business has just become for me about growing my AUM. When I set my goals every year, I'm just like, you know, how much more AUM should I add?

And I think about maybe how many clients that means. And it's just become just, just, just become stressful. I'm, I'm struggling. I'm burnt out. And I'll say, that's interesting. Tell me more. And then they'll dig in a level deeper. And usually by time you do a: “tell me more, why did you say that?” This is what I heard you say.

You can have a really honest conversation about what's the why behind that burnout. And when you can get it out. If you've got it all on the table, then you can start working on how to fix it. And it doesn't have to be, you know, I think you're trying to be careful with this to describe burnout. It isn't always like, you know, I can't get out of bed in the morning, you know, cause we don't want to make light of the stresses, the natural, or maybe they're not the natural, but the stresses that we all can face in life that can keep us from, can keep us feeling paralyzed, but, but getting, getting, getting, getting Get in a good conversation going and allow yourself to say why you feel the way that you do and dig really deep into that puts you on the path to be able to say, okay, now we can start moving forward and finding some ways to beat that burnout, to make that burnout go away.

And it may relate to. Changing the way that you do business or the way that you build your team or the, maybe even the clients that you serve. But it could also mean that, Hey, stop making your life all about your business. Let's find some other stuff that is important to you, that your business supports or allows you to do, because this is a business.

 A business that really helps the, the people who do it well to have great financial success that can do so much good in lots of different places.

Maddy Roche: Yes, I couldn't agree more, Rob. I really, I find it to actually be more dissatisfaction about their inability to tap into this other side of their life versus what they built was unimpressive or something like that. They've often built a really impressive firm. It's a matter of things are just too overwhelming.

There's too much work. They're too accountable. They've got too many clients. They're not, it's not so much they're not making enough, but it's, it's They haven't been able to like get that breather room to actually go implement a different kind of lifestyle for themselves and their families if they have them.

And that's where I'm, I'm seeing so much disconnect. And I find in my coaching role, I'm, I'm just giving permission all the time to be selfish in not that selfish way that people are, you know, don't want to be, but like, we have to put our oxygen masks on first and begin to, to fill our cups outside of the business so we can bring our energy to the business.

Rob Brown: Right, and I agree, but I think you would also say that sometimes what you give them permission to do is approach their businesses. So it's not just the outside of the business, it could be inside the business because they have developed bad habits that they don't think of as bad habits because, you know, I'm grinding every day, you know, and when I hear people say, I'm grinding every day,

Maddy Roche: No,

Rob Brown: like, what, what do you mean by that?

Are you, you know, cause, cause it's hard for me to imagine grinding being Fun and enjoyable but it's like a badge of honor that's somewhere. So you have to strip that back too.

Maddy Roche: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I often find that if people have kind of reached burnout, I'm not going to focus too much on burnout cause it's not a large percentage of our advisors, but there is this arrival at this plateau, they're often ready for a shift and a lot of the times advisors are like, well, it's just time to hire.

And so I can take some time off. I'm interested in your perspective around that. And if that is always the right move as a former manager.

Rob Brown: No, it's not because some people are not meant to be managers or leaders. However you want to, you want to break that down I, one thing that I try to get all of my clients to be thinking about is, are you. Building your business so that it can run without you. And I'm not saying that because I'm helping you on a succession plan, although it can help with that.

 I'm saying that because that helps you determine where you should be. Spending your time. And then once you decide where you should be spending your time, and if there's stuff going on in your business where somebody has to spend time, you've got to ask yourself, well, can we make that go away or is there somebody else that could be doing it?

 And for those who say, you know, it has to be done. I want to keep doing it. I want to keep growing. I want to keep building a team. But we realized that they are not. They are the visionaries for their business. They're not going to be the implementers. We help them find the implementer who can actually help put that plan into into action.

 So I think that becomes really important. So it's, so, but just adding another body or promoting somebody who's already there generally isn't, it's generally not that simple.

Maddy Roche: you know, although you and I feel very clear about it, and there's a lot out there of, of other people in the space reminding advisors that that's not always the answer. I'm still so surprised how quickly people are willing to jump to, well, I just got to get a seat in the, you know, a butt in the seat. And when you're burnt out or when you're tired or you're overwhelmed, adding management and full time employment to that list of accountabilities talk about magnifying your stress.

 There is so much that goes into it. And quite frankly, we don't need more bad managers out there. We need more people who are really dedicated to the craft and want to uplift and empower and develop people in those seats, if that is what they want.

Rob Brown: Yes, I think that's absolutely true And one of the things that I think is helpful for advisors who are trying to make that decision to understand is that if you say, well, well, wow, I'm serving 250 clients with my current team And That's, and I, and I am the, the main point of contact with those clients.

If you add another staff person, and that number is probably too big. Let's just say it's a hundred, but if you add a staff person, who's going to help you run your business, you're eliminating the. 10 of those hundred seats of the clients that you're serving, because that's a job.

That's, that's a responsibility. That takes time too. And even though if you do it right, it should save time and run that business that can run without you, or have that business that can run without you. You still have to think about the time that it takes to have that person there, especially if you don't do a good job in your hiring process and you have to hire And then re hire and then re hire again.

 So it just needs to be intentional.

Maddy Roche: I like that question of, are you building this business? For you to run it or

Rob Brown: So they can route that to you.

Maddy Roche: Run it without you. I'm tempted to add that to my repertoire of questions to folks early on. I mean, how early do you think people should be thinking about this?

Rob Brown: I think you can ask it right out of, maybe, maybe not with an advisor who's just getting started, but that type of advisor that is becoming a member of XYPN or that I'm thinking about being a client that that's a, that's a, that's a very, very important early on question.

Maddy Roche: It's so incredibly important because there's often a pivot point where I think if I were to ask some of my more advanced advisors, they would say that they want the business to run without them, yet they haven't made any decisions in the past to get them there. So there's a lot of work. Any recommendations for folks that maybe are five plus years in that do want to have this business run without them how to begin making that shift?

Rob Brown: Yes, well, I think the first thing you need to do is do sort of an inventory of where you're spending your time, because there are places that you're spending your time that are, that Low productivity that you enjoy doing, but they're low productivity and there are places that you enjoy that that are low productivity that you hate doing.

And so we need to understand what those are, but then the same is true on the other side, what is, what are the high productivity things that you do that you enjoy and what are the high productivity things that you do that you don't enjoy? And you end up kind of circling around, this is where I I need to spend my time as a leader because you, you've identified that, and then you can start thinking about how you deploy those other activities to other people so that you're starting to extract yourself, you know, from the, from the things that you shouldn't be focusing on.

So taking that time to kind of inventory where you're spending your time and where you're getting your results is really, really I think probably the most important place to start.

Maddy Roche: I have found myself recently. Really going back to time tracking. And I don't, I don't want my clients to be time tracking like attorneys do. A few of them do. And boy, it is a eye opening experience and definitely worth their time. But not everyone's going to want to punch a clock every time they, you know, do any sort of client work.

But I'm wondering like, what's your best practice around how to get a gauge of where your time is being spent? Do you encourage people to use things like toggle and actually do an audit of their time? 

Rob Brown: Yes. Well and, this actually takes me back to the burnout thing too. A lot of times, one of the first things that I'll do to get that conversation going is let's do a time audit. Let's just spend a couple of weeks, or depending on the way that you run your business, 30 days whether it's using a software tool or just writing it down on paper, you know, every couple of hours during the course of the day, just make a note of where you spent your time so that we can analyze that.

 I, I still think that's a great exercise and I've been doing that for a long, long time. I just, I think it's very helpful.

Maddy Roche: do too. And I'm, I'm kind of a data focus coach. I require now all new clients to, to use a metric workbook that we've created at XY so that we can actually see where their numbers are and can be tracking it on a, on a weekly or monthly basis. And I don't, I don't want to move, you know I know I'm not, I don’t want to move, to become too rigid in my coaching style, but the time audit is so necessary for so many of the problems just to understand what the source is.

And like you, I recommend do two weeks, just do a slice of time every quarter and just get an, you know, an average of where some of the time is going. And I had a client recently tell me that she charged twice as much as she would have to a client. a one off project client, had she needed it. Not time tracked, she would have charged half of it, or tracked which is just incredible.

I mean, that is like substantive improvement to be able to, to implement at your firm.

Rob Brown: Right, and I think that goes, can go hand in hand with that understanding what your high value, high priority items are. You'll, you start to see that that come out and that just becomes so important for defining how you will guide your business going forward. Because you won't. Create a business that can run without you in 30 days, you know, after doing two weeks of time tracking, but you at least have that started.

And as you suggested, if every quarter or a couple of times a year, you did the same thing and you're answering for that question you'll get there. I have a client that at the very top of his business plan it just says I am building a business that will run without me. And so anytime he looks at his business plan, he wants to be reminded of that because he is a micromanager or he has traditionally been a micromanager who did everything and trusted no one.

 But now he's one of the best leaders that I work with. He had these natural leadership skills, but he needed to have something to frame that for him. So that he can make his decisions around he would consider that to be one of his purposes.

Maddy Roche: I'm interested in kind of your theories around advisors hiring coaches. I think it does take a certain type of advisor to say they need a coach. And I, when it comes to who I work with, I only want to work with coachable people. So if you're not shopping for a coach, I'm not going to try to convince you to get one, but kind of from your perspective and experience, especially your tenure in it, what can be valuable about having a coach for an advisor?

Rob Brown: Well, a number of years ago I had one of my clients tell me that I was Geppetto. And Geppetto was the the the burr now I forget what Geppetto was, but in Pinocchio, the one that was looking over his shoulder, right. And just kind of like holding him and keeping him honest. And I'm always surprised when I ask newer clients, why they, not why they chose me, but why they were looking for a coach is that they, they say, I want to be held accountable and they may not even be say, I want to be held Be able to articulate accountable to what, but they want somebody to look over their shoulder, you know, keep an eye on what they're doing, ask them tough questions that will help set direction, keep them from getting burned out, keep them from doing things that are going to be roadblocks.

And so I think that's who, that's who I'm looking for. If I'm, if, if I'm thinking about my client, there, there's somebody that really values having that co COO or co CEO or fractional whatever that just wants to be there with you. And the clients that I worked with for years, I know their businesses.

Just as well as they do. And that's what they're, that's what they want. And coaches are so much more affordable than hiring

Maddy Roche: Totally.

Rob Brown: a COO or a CEO. And so I, I think that's important. And I think the other thing too, is you, you know, A good coach has systems, like you were talking about being data driven, you know, I, I have a KPI system, you know, with my clients they have to have a system, but they have to be able to understand you well enough so that everything they, they prescribe or suggest or guide on isn't the same thing they tell to every other client because no, You tell me Maddy, have you ever worked with two clients who are exactly the same

Maddy Roche: New.

Rob Brown: and so you have to have that flexibility to be able to use a system that guides while also saying, I know that, you know, you know, Joe is different than Sally and there are things that they want to do.

And even though they might be following my process, I've got to emphasize different things at different points in time. And that creates that that accountability. And when I, when I mentioned that word accountability, that used to seem, you know, when I was coming up, I was like, you want to hold me accountable?

 But that's what they want. That's what they're asking for, which I think is, which I think is great.

Maddy Roche: For sure. Yeah. I have, I've, I have found myself feeling like very much a teammate to some of my clients, especially the folks I have longer tenure with. There's a feeling of mutual respect and that, you know, when we have working sessions together, I often kind of, you know, I'm a coach and consultant at XYPN, so I wear the hat of, I'll just tell you.

My perspective and the answer, if you want it, or I can wear this other hat called the coach where I trust her, you know, whole and have the answer yourself. Do you wear both hats? I mean, are you giving advice pretty regularly about what to do?

Rob Brown: Yes so mine is really a blended coaching consulting practice. Most of my consulting engagements come out of working with a coaching client who has a project they need help with, and because I have experience with that, I can help them put that together and act more in a. This, let's, let's just do it as opposed to let me tell you how to do it or it's just a different dynamic.

Maddy Roche: Yeah, I think there's so much power in working with a coach because especially a coach. In the space that we're in, because we see so much from other advisors that, I mean, the echo chamber is, is the worst thing that can be happening to an advisor is that they just don't have access to other voices and other ideas, or they're just too inundated with the noise.

But to be able to work with someone like you or I and say like, well, actually, traditionally, I see all this happen with an advisor who, you know, reaches success. And to be able to share some of those best practices is really oftentimes what some people are just craving is like, we're thinking about doing this.

What do you see? And that can be very much a value that a coach provides.

Rob Brown: Yeah def, definitely it's what you've seen or maybe even what you've experienced. Some of my clients will tell you that the reason they work with me is they don't know anybody who knows the business better than I do. And I'm not saying I know the business better, but I was an advisor. I helped run a firm of advisors.

And so I bring that dynamic into the, to the coaching. So You know, it just creates a different level of, I guess, of authority is probably the best way to put it, but, um And that's why when you were asking before, you know, has things changed over the last 20 years, you know, sometimes I think about what I'm coaching on or the advice that I'm giving or sharing, I think, gosh, you know, I remember in my fifth year in the business that this is how I solve that problem, you know, cause my system comes from that perspective.

 But at the same time, many of the questions that I answer and help clients with are based on things that I'm helping, you other clients with right now. So it's that continuum of time that makes a difference.

Maddy Roche: I often say I wish I could require all XYPN advisors or people in our community to have a coach, a therapist, and a financial planner. And I am amazed how few people go and hire financial planners or a coach. Many have therapists, which is wonderful, and we are not therapists, nor do we want to be therapists.

I, I won't speak for you, Rob, but we would be therapists if we wanted to. But the challenge to actually get them to work with an advisor themselves to do some life planning about their own financial picture or work with a coach, it's a hard sell sometimes.

Rob Brown: Yep. Sometimes it is. Sometimes you just don't want to feel that you need help or that help be beneficial, that you've got it all put together because after all, you're coaching and advising as an advisor all day, every day, anyway. So why don't you just, you know, you just take your own advice, but it's, it's different, it's different.

And I think, I think those advisors, you, you use the term coachable. I, I'm, I'm leery of that term. Not because that's what, something that I don't like, you know, In a client, but what, how people define coachable can be very different because some people think coaches are going to tell you exactly what to do 

Maddy Roche: Mm. 

Rob Brown: And they don't view the coach as the conductor of the orchestra or the manager in the dugout who can't tell you, you know, how to field the ball.

He better have prepared you to be able to do that on your own. So I think that the idea of being coachable can be misconstrued. And some people think they aren't coachable because they're I'm sure you've never run into a pig-headed advisor who just believes that he or she knows it all. I think they'll say, well, I'm not coachable because I am that way.

 And then you ask them questions and you ask them how they got to where they are, the successes they had, and you realize that they were actually taking coaching from somebody else. They didn't know it. They just had a mentor or a peer or somebody who was giving guidance that they took and they got some feedback and they really are coachable.

Even though they don't feel like they are, because they don't want to admit they need to open up.

Maddy Roche: Mm. Good points. Rob, as we wind down this interview, I'm wondering if you have any final words of wisdom for our listeners.

Rob Brown: Yes you do important work. You do important work. Never forget that. Never shortchange yourself. If you take that important work that you do seriously you can serve a lot of people and make a huge difference in this world, no matter where your chair is in this world. So just remember how important your work is.

Make sure that you keep that as part of your purpose. Don't, don't let anybody tell you that something that is, is wrong about this industry or about the planning. There's so many naysayers. You do important work and your clients are better off because they work with you. Just, just hold that, hold that firm and build on that and strive to get better at that.

 Every, every day.

Maddy Roche: Rob, it has been a total pleasure to have this conversation with you. Thank you so much for being on XYPN Radio. We will include all of the ways to get in touch with Rob in our show notes. Rob, thank you.

Rob Brown: Maddy, thank you. It's been a pleasure.