Empowering Internationally Born Clients Through Financial Planning

Maddy Roche: Hello, and welcome to XYPN Radio. I'm Maddy Roche an Executive Business Coach here at XYPN and the host of this radio show, where we bring you the stories and the voices of advisors who are building the firms of their dreams. Today, we have on XYPN member, Jane Mepham. Founder and CEO of Elgon Financial Advisors, a fee only firm based out of Austin, Texas that specializes in working with foreign born individuals.

Jane was born in Kenya and came to the U S to study computer science. But after a conversation with a financial advisor who asked nothing about her or her husband's backgrounds and had no cultural competence for understanding their goals, she was motivated to make a career change and start her own financial planning firm.

Today she serves over 25 clients and is rapidly expanding. remaining nimble and flexible to her clients offering project hourly and coaching. We discuss a lot in our hour together. Everything from how to have the cultural understanding and patience to ask the right questions during prospect calls to the technical considerations advisors need to weigh as they serve clients in this space.

She talks about how she built her prospect pipeline on the back of content marketing, and how she uses a podcast now to connect to her ideal clients.

Jane shares her dream of building an enterprise firm, where she has multiple teammates working to expand access to planning, and discusses how her network, both virtually and in person, have helped her navigate her own experience of caring for her family back in Kenya while being able to manage her experience of achieving her dreams here in America. I was taken by Jane's passion during this interview and I think you will be too. Be sure to review the resources that we link to in the show notes. And without further ado, here's my interview with Jane.

Hello Jane! Welcome to XYPN Radio, how are you today?

Jane Mepham: I'm good. And thank you so much for having me.

Maddy Roche: Oh, of course. I've so looked forward to this. Jane, you and I met each other this summer at an Austin meetup for XYPN members. And it was such a pleasure to get to know you and learn a bit about what you built. So there's no better time than now for you to introduce yourself to our wonderful listeners about what firm you built.

Jane Mepham: Absolutely. So Austin, Texas my firm is called Elgon Financial Advisors and I'm happy to tell you why I named it Elgon Financial Advisors. But the bottom line is we serve foreign born individuals who could be US citizens or here in the US on green cards, so permanent residents as well as foreign nationals on work visas.

And lately, we seem to be working more with US expats living overseas. And so what we do is really, and again, I'm sure we'll talk about our service is everything from asset management to project plans to hourly, all kinds of good stuff. 

Maddy Roche: Yeah. let's start with the name of the firm. Why Elgon?

Jane Mepham: So Elgon is a mountain range between Kenya and Uganda. I was born in Kenya, and it's one of those that are very hikable. So you can get up there in three, four days, compared to something like Mount Everest. And what happens is you hike these like bushes, there's all kinds of wildlife. You get to the top of the mountain, and that's not your goal.

The goal is to get to the top and then come down right at the top. It's got the largest caldera in the world where they have hot springs. And so I like to think of this journey as I'm the guide, hiking with you up Mount Elgon, getting past tax issues, financial issues, all kinds of minefields. We get to the top and you sink into the hot springs and enjoy that peace that comes after we work together.

Hence Elgon Financial Advisors.

Maddy Roche: Beautiful. I love when advisors have a real connection to the name of their firm, and I imagine it's a story and a reference that you will, discuss with your clients as they onboard with you.

Jane Mepham: Absolutely. Yes.

Maddy Roche: Why don't you give the listeners just a little summary of how many clients you have, when you launched and then we'll get into the meat of the conversation.

Jane Mepham: So I launched in September 2020, basically that's when I got the firm registered. And then I was like, okay and that first year went, I think I may have had just one client. And moving forward, we can talk about that journey. We probably now have something like 25 ongoing. But I seem to be doing a lot of one off projects which before I wasn't willing to do.

But now I am willing to do that. And quite a few hourly folks as well.

Maddy Roche: Great. Okay. I'll want to dive into your service model, and certainly that first year. But tell us a bit about your career trajectory. How did you find yourself as a financial planner and CFP®?

Jane Mepham: So I was in IT when I first came to, so let's maybe go back a little bit. I came to the US on a student visa. And so I've gone through that whole journey of being on a student visa, work visa, green card and then becoming a citizen. And when I first came to the US my goal was, which I actually did, was to study computer science.

That was really one of the easiest ways to become a permanent resident. So I did all that. I became, I worked in a couple of different companies, different areas of IT and one thing I noticed was I did work with a lot of folks who were in the US on work visas. And I could see their struggle because when you work with somebody on a work visa, they really don't know whether they're going to be here or not. They don't know where they're going to retire. If you lose your job on a work visa, basically you leave the country in 60 days. So it's a lot of nuances and a lot of stress just being in that particular situation. Oh, and by the way my husband came from England on a different work visa.

And so as we're going through that whole journey, knowing I probably can't really do finances, I always loved finances. I had to figure out how can I help people and how can I help ourselves? So the story I tell, which is true, actually, I wrote about it is we went to this financial advisor one time. And because we've been told we needed to go to a financial advisor and I knew at some point we need to go to a financial advisor and all I can say is it was a disaster.

The person did not ask us anything about where we are coming from, did not ask us anything about what we want to do. The assumption was we just want to retire. And so I kept thinking to myself, why didn't you ask us all these questions? Oh, so we did the first visit and then we came back for the plan presentation.

And this is the part that was really bad. He started scolding us saying, you guys make so much money. And it's true. We had great careers. We had but started, but I don't see where your money is going. And I remember we like shrunk into our seats and looking back, I keep thinking why didn't you ask us where we are from for one?

Because then you'd have understood that we probably need to make two or three trips back home. We had decided to spend money on that. There's a wedding, there's a funeral. So there's all that cultural stuff that comes in. When you work with people from a different country, don't just assume we want to save for retirement.

It took a long time for us to honestly ever want to talk to a financial advisor.

Maddy Roche: Wow.

Jane Mepham: But here I am. So I'm thinking about all that, right? And then again, another story that happened was the first job they gave me a 401k. And I had no idea what to do with this thing, especially when the lady said something alluding to the American dream.

And part of it is I remember almost feeling embarrassed and devastated. I've been given the opportunity, but I don't know how all these impacts. What it is that I want to do with my life. Is it going to affect my immigration status? What happens? And so I've seen all of this. And so my goal was when I'm finally able to, I need to figure out how to work with people on their finances.

A bit long winded, but it tells you why I'm here and why I'm doing what I'm doing.

Maddy Roche: Oh, I'm so grateful that you're here doing what you're doing. I imagine you are so desperately needed. Is there a Northstar resource to help people navigate these issues as they come to America?

Jane Mepham: No.

Maddy Roche: Jane and her firm.

Jane Mepham: There's really no one. So one of the services I've just started in, I think I have a prospective client for this is almost like an educational service. I'm calling it consultation for foreign nationals in the US you've just arrived in the US you're not ready to do financial planning, but you just need somebody to tell you what are the some of the things you need to be thinking about taxes, right?

If a company offers you a retirement plan, should you take it? Where do you go to get your credit score? Those kinds of questions and issues. So I'll see how it goes. I think it's a service that's needed. And like I said, it's educational two, three hours. We'll sit down, we'll talk. I'll tell you here, these are all the things you need to know and go from there.

Maddy Roche: Wow. Incredible. There's a number of different services that you've alluded to offering and I will tease the listeners that we will get there because I think it's definitely part of your story. But what was that transition into opening your firm like? what, did you have to do to actually get registered and make that career transition as a career changer?

Jane Mepham: So all along, like I said I was very interested in finances and I pretty much read everything you can think of. Some bad, some not so good. And I tried, I kept trying to figure out if I had a CFP®, but it wasn't until I moved to Austin that I found the FPA and I found where they meet and then I found Kitces and I finally realized, yes I have a path, going from a very high income, good job and everything.

To actually being able to start my own firm so when I found Kitces I was like, okay, we can actually do this thing. And then of course I found you guys. And so I went back to school, I got my CFP®. I then ended up working with an advisor up in Minnesota who was amazing. Helped me so much. Let me do everything in his firm.

And he worked with foreign doctors or doctors who are residents in the US and the more I worked with them because they're coming like I remember this one case where somebody says I got 10 brothers and sisters back in X, Y, Z. I need a plan to support them. So thinking through some of those issues and some of the unique challenges that we're facing really convinced me I can start a firm geared towards working with this group.

And so I worked with him, like I said, for about a year, learned a ton, came to XYPN. And I had a couple people offer me jobs but it didn't make a lot of sense but I really knew I wanted to just go down and start my own firm and my hope my goal was i'm gonna start something It could be five six years.

It's okay I'll make it work.

Maddy Roche: Tell us a little bit, yeah, tell us a little bit more about that intuition that you wanted to do this on your own. What was, why was that so important to you?

Jane Mepham: Because everybody I looked at, nobody seemed to be serving these people that I knew needed help. And I just didn't see anybody serving this group. And a lot of times, you'd go there's like these huge, minimum assets. And I'll look at their websites and I'm like, I don't feel like they are talking to me.

So if I think of ourselves, my family and I as our ideal clients, I really couldn't find a firm that served us and would serve us at a level that we can afford, that they'll take into consideration our cultural background. If we tell them we have to support our parents overseas, they'll be like, okay, let's figure out how much versus telling us that may not work that kind of thing.

So I looked around, like I said, I spoke to a couple of firms and I'm like, nobody's doing what I really want to do. Now within XYPN, I've met other advisors who are working with this group and which is absolutely amazing. And so it was like, I have to start something. I don't know how I'm going to do it.

But again, once I found XYPN, it's okay, these guys will hold my hand and they'll help me get registered and do all the things that I need to do. And yes, we can do it. I wouldn't have started it though without XYPN. That's for sure.

Maddy Roche: I'm so glad to hear that, that you trusted that intuition of yours, that starting it on your own and building it the way you know needed it to be built for this, for this group and niche to be served appropriately is, a really beautiful thing. And I think what so many of our advisors at XYPN have been prompted to do based on their own lived experiences.

So, let's talk about this firm that you built and you talked about in the first year having maybe one client and I really want listeners to hear this because this is important to hear. The first year is hard. We know that. So let's hear from Jane's experience who's now running a very successful firm.

What was that like?

Jane Mepham: It sucked. That's probably all I'm going to say. 

Maddy Roche: You heard it here first, listeners.

Jane Mepham: oops, So, I didn't have my CFP® and that was one of my concerns. Is anybody going to talk to me without a CFP® right? But the more I talk to other advisors, I think I've had really good mentors. They said, Jane, don't worry about for example, not having the CFP® you'll be fine.

The key thing is they need to hear your passion. They need to know that you can help them and go for it. And some of the earlier coaching calls, I remember, what's her name? The other coaching lady

Maddy Roche: Arlene Moss

Jane Mepham: Yeah. Saying, more than the client knows. So just do it, right? You can help them. So having that conviction convinced me I could do it.

And so, like I said I just followed everything at XYPN like I said I knew it was going to be tough. Oh, one thing I should have said and this is really important is my husband had a job, so that was great. I had saved Three years worth of money, worth of expenses. So I didn't have to worry about not having clients to bring in income because I knew that side of things was already covered.

So I think that's important. And I do say to folks, it's important that you have a nice runway saved. And so my phone gets registered and I'm like, okay, what's next? I talked to a couple of the advisors and what I'd said was, I have a hard time just picking up the phone and calling people or reaching out.

Once we get the conversation going, it gets a little bit easier. I'm able to handle that. But just that intro bit like, Hey Maddy can we talk about your finances? And that's a hard one. So to attract people, my goal was I'm going to start blogging. And so right away I actually had a couple articles ready to go.

I started putting things on my blog. I started posting on LinkedIn and slowly but surely people started reaching out.

Maddy Roche: That's so great to hear. We coach a lot about going after some content marketing initially, but content marketing can fall very flat if you don't have a voice, a conviction, a passion, a niche, a clear target market that you're speaking to and providing solutions for. So listeners, as take a page out of Jane's book, consider what expertise you can bring to the table to support this niche and what kind of lived experience you can connect with them over.

So content marketing seemed to work for you in the first year. What other mechanisms and methods of marketing did you rely on in the first couple of years?

Jane Mepham: That's it.

Maddy Roche: That's it.

Jane Mepham: Seriously, it's just content marketing. So I doubled down on that and the other thing I ended up doing. So I still remember the first article I wrote was, foreign guardianship. I would rely a lot to your point on my lived experiences. And so I give myself as an example because I knew people in this particular situation.

I wasn't born in the US granted. I'm a citizen now. I don't have family here. My husband doesn't have family. We have kids. We need to plan for the future. How do we do estate planning for them? That article continues to bring me prospects even today. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. So, I did a ton of, content marketing, did a lot of reaching out to different places where I could publish. So I, if you look at my press page, I have articles all over the place and I still do a lot of that. And I think one of the best that I only did it last year was putting something on Kitces specifically for foreign nationals on work visas.

So I continue to reach out to all these different places Where I can get stuff published very active on LinkedIn, but really it comes down to content marketing, SEO Reaching out to that's the other thing I've also done and it's really working well for me, reaching out to different colleges and offering to talk to their incoming students.

So I now do a bunch of webinars with the Harvard business class before they get here, after they get here. And before they have to file their taxes. And again, it's addressing all these things that we talked about. They may not be clients right now, but those are people who I know will be good future clients.

Maddy Roche: Kudos to you for your initiative to, to reach out to some of these different, periodicals, blogs, websites, things like that kind of cross channel, sharing can be deeply powerful. And not everyone can get an article published on Kitces unless it's specific in nature. So you really had a topic that, that was relevant and timely.

And I'm so glad to hear that that kind of initiative got you your original client. So let's talk about when you originally set up the firm, your story around being asked and assumed that you only wanted to retire was really powerful. So I assume that you don't lead your relationships with that question.

How do you, how did you originally set up your services for your clients?

Jane Mepham: Again, relying on the knowledge that I have of this group, the questions I ask are specific but I'm not asking them about money. I never even talk about retirement. So before, I never would even ask how much your assets are. I don't need to ask that. I just want to know that they can pay. So when we get on a call by then, hopefully they've read a little bit of my story and I really talk about, thank you so much for setting up a call.

I'm excited to hear your story that got you to this. point. We get on the call. I just want to hear their story. That's it. Tell me and it's not tell me about yourself. I'll make it very specific because now people will sometimes say something like I'm on this particular visa. I've never seen anybody writing about this particular visa.

So I'll talk about it. Tell me how you came to America. Let's hear you coming to America story. And some of those are fascinating for sure. And they've all had challenges. And as they talk through those, I start picking up on bits and pieces about what's important to them, what it is that they are looking for.

There's still that thing that they asked at the beginning, that kind of made them reach out. So we really talk about their story and what's even funny is I don't even talk about my firm unless they ask, unless they ask me specific questions about my firm. Then that's when we can talk about his, here's what my firm does and I have a lot of detailed stuff on my website anyway, so we'll talk about all that and then I leave it up to them I'll say i'll send you a summary you let me know how you want to proceed The other thing is I typically have people set up like a 30 minutes call, but I leave my calendar open.

I've gone on for an hour and I don't mind because I just want to hear their story. And that seems to make a huge difference.

Maddy Roche: I could imagine it makes a huge difference. There's so few relationships let alone professional service relationships that start with a question that feels like a big hug there's it's a really powerful beautiful question to start with.  Start at the beginning tell me your story that is deeply powerful and that bodes well for you know our idea is always around that this is a relationship based business and you have to connect the human before the money. So if you were engaging your services, what could you expect to, how do you expect to be served by your firm in terms of ongoing relationships?

Jane Mepham: Yeah. So finally. I don't have many mums simply because These are people that probably have great incomes, but all their assets are in a 401k, but they still need service. One thing I've done is I've been very flexible. I'm constantly tweaking things. So I'm now at a point where We'll start at like around $5-6K depending on what the complexities are, it can go up to, let's say even maybe 10k or something like that anyway and I'll include a certain amount of assets based on what your fee is going to be for the second year So let's assume your first year fee is 6k and your second year fee is going to be let's say 4k or something like that. I'll include that and I make it obvious. You don't have to bring your assets over, but i'm happy to Include it as part of this and what i've seen happening, which is interesting work gets added three months into it, they're like, okay, I know you said you can manage assets for us under the same fee. And I'm like, absolutely. That's when they're ready to bring in the assets. This crew is maybe because of some of their experiences. And what they've seen may be based on the country they're coming from they're not always as quick to trust.

So you want to step into it slowly and gently, if that makes sense. So that's one service offering, which is what I'd like to do more of, the ongoing relationship. 

Maddy Roche: Yes. And I've actually talked to advisors recently who have taken a laissez faire approach to assets in that same way. hey, I offer it, but it's not required. And that just on face value feels very trustworthy to, say that and not lead it. So I think that can work for, more than just this niche.

But you've mentioned that you've remained flexible and as a coach, we try to always coach, stay true to your business structure and your service model. Don't try to deviate or change for clients, but we have example after example of highly niched advisors needing to remain nimble for the reason of serving their clients.

Can you tell the listeners a bit about some of the changes you've made to your service model that allow you to remain as nimble as you can be to this group?

Jane Mepham: So the ongoing is the main service, right? The next service I've started offering and before it wasn't a biggie is project based service. Where I'm seeing a lot of, I think I mentioned to you before we got on the call, I'm working with a client, they're here on a work visa and they're going to be leaving the US in about two months. And I'm so glad they reached out to me. So the project that we're working on is helping them get ready to leave go to the other country that they are moving to. It's in terms of figuring out where to put their assets. Do they need to move them to another custodian? They're thinking they'll be able to do some broad strategies, but based on where they're going i'm like that's not going to be a good idea.

So talking them through all that doing some estate planning before they go Making sure they have the right beneficiaries based on where they are going You And the final report I'm gonna give them will also include how they can claim social security from overseas. So that's a project that really does not need to be an ongoing project.

And they really need the service because they're like, I haven't been able to find somebody else to help me with that. Another example is somebody just had it on what's called F-1. So you're in an F-1 visa you get what's called an OPT Which allows you, it's a visa that allows you to work for two three years And so they don't need ongoing.

They're just getting started, but they want to start on the right foot. So I'm doing a lot more of those projects because again, they're very needed and I know it's helping them. Another one, that's interesting I wrote this article on what happens if you receive gifts from overseas and they're not citizens and that kind of thing.

And I got so many questions on it. I ended up having to make it like an hourly service. I send you the paperwork, you sign on, we get on a call. I answer all your questions. For an hour and then I send you a written report and I've done five or six of them now. So being that flexible and then there's the other service I mentioned the new to the US professionals so being flexible and going back to how would I want to be served at the different stages of my life Is really what i'm trying to do with all these services. 

Maddy Roche: I have a couple questions just around pricing and as folks come in, are you quoting them based on what they're telling you, or are they choosing from a menu as they come in? How do you, where they fall?

Jane Mepham: On the website I have, this is where we start but I'm now at a point where, as we talk through I have a pretty good idea of what that price should be.

Maddy Roche: Got it.

Jane Mepham: So the hourly, I was going to say the hourly fee, it's an hourly fee. So this is what it is for now. You pay for that. And so far I haven't seen like newer cases where I've quoted where it's like, Oh, that's not right.

But the earlier clients, there are some I probably should have charged more but that's okay. I don't mind.

Maddy Roche: Yeah, talk to us a bit about how you gauge complexity, like what qualifies as complexity in an already very complex niche? what are some of your thresholds and what would you charge for?

Typical client they're probably here on work visas. It could be both of them. They may have because of the industry they're in, It's tech, they have options and we need to think through that. So that raises a complexity. If I ask them whether they've filed their taxes, that's another question I asked now right from the word go and whether they've been reporting foreign assets and they haven't.

That's another complexity. But if they tell me they're up to date, I'll still ask for their tax forms as we get into the relationship. But they have overseas assets that increases complexity. If they have the assets like rental properties, that kind of thing, that increases the complexity. what else? If they have maybe property here, and again, we have to be careful, that increases the complexity.

But the main thing is, so a typical client, without complexity, they're probably just here on a work visa, they're working at a job, and there's still things around that, but that's it, if that makes sense.

And then this new to the US professional coaching, is it under your RIA umbrella or is it a separate service under a separate business

Jane Mepham: So I just work with compliance to help me put that into place because you want to make sure you work with compliance. So it's not financial advising. It's coming under the education portion of it. Yeah, it's just an educational service and we're not going to do any financial planning, and I'll explain all that.

Maddy Roche: But you'll still have client agreement? 

Jane Mepham: Yeah. So we talked with compliance and we talked about what they need to sign. But again, it's just educational service that I'm doing for them, but it's not financial planning. Obviously, I have to be very careful not to go, not to go over the line.

Maddy Roche: I'm interested in talking about kind of the nuances of this niche, but I do want to hear more about just your experience as being an entrepreneur over these past few years. What has it been like for you to chart your path?

Jane Mepham: It's like jumping into the deep end.

Maddy Roche: ha 

Jane Mepham: And not being a very good swimmer. So I recall talking to my sister ages ago. She's big on entrepreneurship and saying, I don't think I'll ever start any business and here we are.

Maddy Roche: Wow.

Jane Mepham: So, yeah, so it's been like a mind shift. I tend to be very flexible and I'm willing to learn.

It's been a mind shift and I feel like I'm still learning. But I really, enjoy the fact that. It's me like, I can control my destiny, if that makes sense. So just being very flexible, willing to learn, but it's not an easy journey. I completely get. And when I chat with my clients and prospects, I do say not everybody needs to start a business.

Even though immigrants tend to have a tendency to start lots of businesses, by the way, I say, I'll support you but you don't have to start just because. Somebody says you need to do it. I don't know if that's answering your question.

Maddy Roche: It sure is. And just to riff off of what you just said, you, you shared some stats on your website or your blog. I forget where I saw it around the number of foreign born individuals who own billion dollar businesses here in the US do you know that stat or could you add a little bit more to that?

Jane Mepham: 25 percent of unicorns have been started by foreign born nationals and a lot of them came to the US on student visas. 

Maddy Roche: And they, need financial planning folks.

Jane Mepham: They need financial planning. They need somebody that's willing to really be sensitive to their cultural background. That's the other thing I constantly talk a lot about, but also be willing to work around the nuances of what they're bringing to the table.

Maddy Roche: When you think back on the past couple of years outside of needing to shift the service a bit, tweak your pricing, what has been the most challenging part of being an entrepreneur for you?

Jane Mepham: So I think it's combined. Maybe being an entrepreneur and being a financial advisor. So probably two distinct challenges for lack of a better word on the financial side it's just gaining the knowledge and maybe we'll come to that. But I think on the other side, running a business, I've never done this before.

So, I'm making it up as we go along for sure. There's also the challenges of like family dynamics, like I mentioned at the beginning. Now being foreign born means my family is not here and my family is not just my immediate family It's also my family overseas and sometimes having to go over and take care of them that's a challenge that I can't be here throughout. Not having inbuilt networks, because again I don't have that family.

I do have friends, but it's a little different. I can't say I have old money, if that makes sense. And so getting around that is trying to surround myself with people who have the same mindset. And this is why, like I said, XYPN has really helped. What are some of the other challenges? Having to figure out everything, on my own, if something doesn't work, then okay, Jane, that's what you kind of think.

Maddy Roche: I listened to one of your podcasts and your podcast has been so wonderful and I know very helpful to you as you build your business, but you talked a bit about what it's like to manage aging parents abroad. And, I know you have a, your own lived experience with this. You just alluded to it. How do you balance that?

Jane Mepham: That is one of the toughest things about being foreign born, being in another country. I would not change my life up to now for the opportunity to be home If that makes sense. And so what happens as a foreign born person would talk a lot about, I've even put it somewhere in my website. When I talk to somebody about going home, I know exactly what they mean. So we'll talk about, Oh, I got this plan. I'm trying to go home and actually have a lot of clients in this situation who now have to spend a lot of time visiting aging parents. I mentioned I had to take off like three, four months in 2022 to go home and take care of my mom. Cause I'm, we're still the primary caregivers and have to deal with that whole journey of I'm here, I need to support them, whether it's financially or emotionally or whatever. In my case, I needed to be there physically. And that really is tough. And those are some of the things that I see with my clients. I have a client I've been working with, and she went through the same thing.

One of her parents passed away during Covid and they couldn't go home.

 Which is really tough. So this is one thing I almost want to bring out at the front. Like I know that particular challenge when you tell me, you need to go home every so often. And I'm like, don't worry, we got Zoom.

We can talk from wherever you are. And that's, that is a really big one. And as we continue aging, it's going to continue being a challenge.

Maddy Roche: Thank you for your transparency, both on this podcast and to the clients that you share this with, because I imagine that kind of bedside manner, that understanding that real experience of it means so much and so that when you do need to go home and be with your mother they understand.

Jane Mepham: Yeah. Yeah. That's true. Thank you for saying that.

Maddy Roche: Let's talk a bit about if advisors, maybe who aren't foreign born themselves, are looking to either enter this niche, or maybe just have a client that is foreign born. Are there any roadblocks? Yes, I imagine there are roadblocks, challenges, nuances to this niche that you would advise them to consider before taking the client?

Jane Mepham: So there's a technical knowledge. I started working with another client and I saw what the prior advisor did and I just felt so bad because there's some things they did they shouldn't have done. So yeah, based on where this person needed to go. So when I wrote, for example, this article I talked a lot about everybody knows and this is a long way around of saying this, everybody knows a Roth is a good thing, but not always A Roth is not a good thing if you plan to retire in a country where the tax treaty does not take that into consideration does not consider that to be a tax free account and so in that case because I know everybody comes saying they need a Roth, there's still other things we need to, we can do, which is what I was trying to do in that article to still help this group save or this group plan for the future. So the first thing is the technical knowledge. And as we said at the beginning, there's no CFP® course specifically for foreign nationals and work visa and that kind of thing.

So if you're planning on getting into this niche, it's okay. to acknowledge that one, you don't have the technical knowledge and be willing to spend the time learning as much as you can. I still learn a lot. I think the first two, three years I probably spent like 10 to 15 hours every week going into tax treaties, like things like CPA Academy.

I'm still there, trying to learn as much as I can about and being careful again, not to go past the line, but tax law and international taxes and that kind of thing. So educate yourself. So the technical knowledge is the first thing as much as you can. That's one. And then, it's okay to reach out to somebody like me, for example, I had an advisor reach out to me and say I have this client.

I don't think I can help them. Is there any way you can help me? I'm willing to help. And maybe I need to figure out how to work with other advisors more formally. I don't need to take your client, but just be willing to help. Now, the way you approach the client, you need to be very empathetic for one. You really need to dig deep into their story.

For example, like I was saying, if somebody tells me, They're from XYZ and they're here on this particular visa right away. I know there are things we don't want to do because they're on this visa. They may not be able to stay as long. So I'll give you an example. If you're from, let's say, India, China, And you're in the US. on an H-1B visa and there's a possibility you could get a green card. You're probably going to have to wait 15-20 years before you can ever get that green card because of what's called the priority date. So, because of that even though you may not bring it up, I'm going to make sure I bring it up at some point that there's a possibility you may not get the green card.

Let's talk about what that would look like. So be sensitive to where they are coming from. Again, like I said try and dig deep, but dig deep gently. So I was talking with this person and as soon as they got on and we were talking about, he was going to have to pay for their sister's wedding. And I said, Oh yeah.

And I know exactly what that means and as soon as I said that, he's okay, great. So we talked about that for 20 minutes or something like that.

Maddy Roche: What?

Jane Mepham: Be very sensitive. 

Maddy Roche: What did that mean?

Jane Mepham: It meant he's the one that has to pay the dowry for this sister

before he can get married.

Maddy Roche: Wow.

Jane Mepham: So I completely understood what he was talking about. Somebody may be like, Oh, how can you pay your sister's dowry? To me, it's more okay, let's figure out how we pay for that. There are those cultural things that we're going to do. So listen carefully and if you get an opening, Gently ask, try and learn more about them.

So be sensitive. The cultural sensitivity is huge. Understand that they may not say yes right away. It may take two maybe two meetings or more for them to say, yes I'm willing to work with you. what was the other thing? So I think it's that sensitivity, the technical knowledge, And just be willing to learn more.

We still need more people in this space for sure. We do. 

Maddy Roche: Do you think it's appropriate or do you think it's a space that non foreign born individuals can enter into as advisors?

Jane Mepham: I think they can. The advantage I have though, is of being on this. So when somebody says I'm on this particular visa, I'm like Oh yeah I know exactly what you mean. Then they're like, Oh you get it. I think they can, they just have to be willing to learn more and be willing, honestly to be students in this space. Make sure you have like immigration attorneys at your side. It was like really be willing to be a student is the thing.

Maddy Roche: And I so appreciate you saying how you remain a student in this space, even as a person with this lived experience, that you have to stay that up to date. I imagine there's a lot of changing parts to this.

Jane Mepham: Yeah. So I really try and stay on top of immigration laws. especially when it comes to all these work visas, I really try and stay on top of tax laws and anything to do with foreign tax issues. And like I'm willing, I'm always looking into doing what's the Supreme Court is doing, because they've had a few cases on that and really attending, webinars, you have to be willing to do that for sure.

Maddy Roche: We'll link to the article that you wrote on the Kitces blog about that, Roth consideration that you drew. And I'm interested outside of pinging you for your time, are there resources for advisors to begin learning about this? Because as you said, it's not taught in the CFP® curriculum.

Any, resources you'd recommend, books, podcasts, otherwise?

Jane Mepham: Yeah. So places like. Like the CPA Academy, being a member of CIGA network. So this is a group of cross border planners where we tend to discuss a lot of, we do a lot of case studies kind of thing, ask each other questions, GFP, going to FPA, the foreign, what is it called the Internationa Advisor Study Group that's a good one.

There's a bunch of lawyers and tax laws I follow, Patrick McCormick, there's another guy called HodgenLaw PC so I can give you links to all these people if that's helpful. And then I think I'm going to make a plug for a podcast. Since we started this podcast with, my friend Manasa, who's a cross border EA, all she does is taxes for foreign born families.

We've been doing a lot of episodes and we noticed we have a lot of advisors following us. So our goal was, people who like coming to the US not necessarily advisors, but if it helps advisors absolutely go for it. So the podcast is called the International Money Cafe in, I think there's a lot of good stuff in there.

People want to check it out.

Maddy Roche: It's called the International Money Cafe podcast, and you've got a great other voice on the line with you as you talk through some of these complex issues, everything from taxes to the aging parent scenario that we talked through, but what was the genesis of that?

Why, did you start that podcast?

Jane Mepham: So the reason we started the podcast again as I'm trying to learn as much as I can, I'm going to these webinars, these groups where people are talking about cross border stuff, and I ran into Mana so that's the only way to put it. I saw she asked a question, I pinged her I said let's get together. She's got a very curious mind.

I think we are the same when it comes to being curious. So we started chatting and we said Hey, how about we meet and do coffee chats. We started meeting once a month and then we started meeting every Friday and would get on these coffee chats and just talk tax, finances, and what this entails. And one day we were like, Manasa, I think this would be really good if we could let people listen in on our coffee chats.

And literally that's how the podcast was born. And so we get on the call every Friday morning, we have all coffees and we take a term used in the cross border space, for example, and talk about it all. For example, the aging parents part of it. And so our goal is to keep building this up and have it be like part of the marketing machine for our firms.

But in the meantime, build it as much as we can have a community where we can talk to people more about some of these issues like we really want to build a community around this. 

Maddy Roche: I enjoyed it listening to the podcast even though I'm not an advisor or a client. So who's your target market with this podcast?

Jane Mepham: This podcast, our target market is the same group that we work with. So foreign born, green card holders or US citizens or foreign nationals of non immigrant work visas and US expats again, these are the same people we're trying to help answering all these questions, that they come up with.

And like I said, I guess we're having a lot of advisors listening in. And even though they're not part of our target audience, if we can help them, absolutely. We're happy to help them. 

Maddy Roche: You mentioned the CIGA network that was founded by a long time XYPN member.

Jane Mepham: Hui-chin, who was I think one of the very first people to get into this space. She's amazing. Absolutely amazing. And she's always trying to bring people together. It's been, awesome being a part of that group. I've done a few presentations there as well. It's, I'm so glad we have them.

Yeah. Yeah.

Maddy Roche: We also at XYPN do have a cross border planning group, a group of advisors who do work in this space that I know share a lot of information among each other. 

Jane Mepham: Oh, I have to find that one.

Maddy Roche: Yes. Oh, you're not part of I haven't it?

Jane Mepham: I haven't seen it and yet I'm like all things XYPN. Okay. find it. I'll find it.

Maddy Roche: I will fact check myself, but we used to at least, and Hui-chin was part of that as well. 

Jane Mepham: Okay. Okay. of the 

Maddy Roche: Along with other folks that work with expats in the space. So, I'm interested in what you hope to build over the longterm.

Jane Mepham: I've been thinking about this a lot being very flexible. I have planned to be in it for the long haul and my initial thought was like a boutique kind of firm. But I'm now starting to think with knowing the need that's out there probably need to start thinking about going bigger. But I think I don't want to be a solo advisor.

So it's really thinking about bringing in other advisors, bringing in cross border CPA's so my goal is I think we end up with something like an enterprise kind of firm is now what I'm thinking.

Maddy Roche: Wow. That'll be a big change for you.

Jane Mepham: I know, but it's just seeing what's out there and knowing there's so many people that need to be served.

So is there any way I can do this? So if I can figure out, let's say even how to bring other advisors and teach them, I'm willing to do that. So stay tuned. 

Maddy Roche: I did read in your bio that you are an avid tennis player and runner. I'm wondering how do you stay sane as you build this big business of yours?

Jane Mepham: So the tennis part, I've always been a tennis player. I don't know how many people know this, but I actually was a tennis coach.

Maddy Roche: Interesting.

Jane Mepham: Yeah. And that's part of me going through school. So that was my other. possibility for a career, but that didn't work out. And so it's a great way to stay fit but now what has happened since I moved here, which is why on my website, I say my girls are still, they might beat me now, but it's still holding my own is all I'm going to say.

And they're really good tennis players. So I've now pivoted to doing running. It's the thing that kind of keeps me sane and what I've done with that. I have a community, I have a group of runners who's part of my community. Cause when you work solo, you need to get out there. So we go out a couple of times a week.

We run, so many miles, whatever it is. We do a long run on Saturday. I'm always posting about that. It keeps me sane for sure. Having that.

Maddy Roche: Incredible.

Jane Mepham: yeah. It's

Maddy Roche: Do you have advice for anyone that might be listening to this podcast, just about being an entrepreneur generally, from your experience?

Jane Mepham: it's not easy for one, but it's doable. And I like to think there's something called, I don't know if you've heard of this expression, the immigrant mindset. We heard of that.

Maddy Roche: Tell me more. 

Jane Mepham: So when immigrants come to the US things are not easy. But the reason we end up studying so many businesses is because we take the approach.

I'm going to work on this. I'm not, giving up is not an option. I'm going to make it work. And if that thing that I'm trying to build is not there, I'm going to build it on my own. So that idea of being persistent, being flexible, looking for different ways of getting this thing to work, what I like to think of as an immigrant mindset.

So have that. Be willing to ask for help. Don't give up. There's a lot of people willing to help, but also be willing to be generous with what you have. So you're not just taking, you're also giving, giving. And then be willing to know that you don't know everything. So I think if you have that mindset, a curious mindset, it can be done, but also know it may take a while to have success.

And that's okay. Have a vision, I think is the thing.

Maddy Roche: Well said, Jane.

Jane Mepham: Thank you.

Maddy Roche: It has been a total pleasure to spend this morning with you, and I know our listeners have gained a lot by hearing about your experience and your expertise, and thank you so much for sharing as openly as you have over the past hour. XYPN is so lucky to have you as a member. It was such a joy to have lunch with you in Austin during one of our meetups.

And I hope to have you back on XYPN Radio in the coming years to talk about the enterprise business that you will certainly be building.

Jane Mepham: Thank you so much. This has been fun. I can't believe all that much time has gone. Thank you so much, Maddy, I've enjoyed this.

Maddy Roche: Thank you, Jane.